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STTR_85331
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Mar 31, 2011

LTM DMZ Design Question

Greetings,     We have been running a pair of LTMs in production for several years in what I would consider "one-armed" mode in that the traffic flows as follows:     Internet<-->Firewall...
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DMZ Design Question","id":"message:130225","revisionNum":1,"repliesCount":11,"author":{"__ref":"User:user:173935"},"depth":0,"hasGivenKudo":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:TechnicalForum"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:130225"},"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:130225"},"body@stripHtml({\"truncateLength\":200})":"Greetings,   \n   We have been running a pair of LTMs in production for several years in what I would consider \"one-armed\" mode in that the traffic flows as follows:   \n   Internet<-->Firewall...","body@stringLength":"2605","rawBody":"Greetings,

 

\n

 

We have been running a pair of LTMs in production for several years in what I would consider \"one-armed\" mode in that the traffic flows as follows:

 

\n

 

Internet<-->Firewalls<-->LTMs<-->Web Servers.

 

\n

 

The LTM Virtual Servers use SNAT AutoMap and the web servers use an internal router as their default gateway. Incoming traffic from the internet passes the firewalls and LTMs and is returned out the same path as the web servers see it as originating from an IP on their local subnet (the F5 internal floating IP). Management traffic for the web servers passes over the internal router from other internal networks.

 

\n

 

In addition to the web services (HTTP/HTTPS) provided by the above configuration we have now been asked to host STMP relays (inbound/outbound SMTP), DNS (might later be a GTM) and other services that I wouldn't immediately think of putting behind a load balancer.

 

\n

 

I was originally planning on putting these new services in a separate DMZ which would exist as an interface on another firewall pair (a traditional 3-leg firewall design) but now I'm wondering if there are reasons that I should consider combining all these services into a centralized DMZ that provides both secure access to SMTP, DNS, etc as well as access to load balanced web farms for HTTP/HTTPS. I have a feeling that if I want to do this with SMTP and DNS outside the F5 but behind my firewall I'll need to move to an inline configuration so that I have a way to send management traffic to/from the DNS/SMTP servers assuming they are behind the DMZ firewall but outside the LTMs.

 

\n

 

I'd be interested in others thoughts on best practices for such a configuration as well as where I can read further on my options. I've reviewed the F5 implementation manuals but they seem to only cover individual aspects of what I'm trying to achieve rather than a complete solution.

 

\n

 

I'd also be interested in general thoughts on where to place services like SMTP, DNS, etc in an environment that includes F5 LTMs as my assumption to date has been that I would want these things in a DMZ but not behind my LTMs.

 

\n

 

Thanks in advance for any tips or pointers to additional reading.

 

\n

 

Cheers,

 

\n

 

SJT.

 

","kudosSumWeight":0,"postTime":"2011-03-31T09:04:00.000-07:00","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[],"totalCount":0,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"tags":{"__typename":"TagConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[{"__typename":"TagEdge","cursor":"MjQuMTJ8Mi4xfG98MTB8X05WX3wx","node":{"__typename":"Tag","id":"tag:config","text":"config","time":"2022-01-24T02:29:45.173-08:00","lastActivityTime":null,"messagesCount":null,"followersCount":null}},{"__typename":"TagEdge","cursor":"MjQuMTJ8Mi4xfG98MTB8X05WX3wy","node":{"__typename":"Tag","id":"tag:design","text":"design","time":"2022-01-24T02:29:45.172-08:00","lastActivityTime":null,"messagesCount":null,"followersCount":null}}]},"timeToRead":2,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:130225_1"},"latestVersion":null,"metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":923},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","canonicalUrl":null,"seoTitle":null,"seoDescription":null,"isEscalated":null,"placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}},"archivalData":null,"customFields":[],"body":"Greetings,

 

\n

 

We have been running a pair of LTMs in production for several years in what I would consider \"one-armed\" mode in that the traffic flows as follows:

 

\n

 

Internet<-->Firewalls<-->LTMs<-->Web Servers.

 

\n

 

The LTM Virtual Servers use SNAT AutoMap and the web servers use an internal router as their default gateway. Incoming traffic from the internet passes the firewalls and LTMs and is returned out the same path as the web servers see it as originating from an IP on their local subnet (the F5 internal floating IP). Management traffic for the web servers passes over the internal router from other internal networks.

 

\n

 

In addition to the web services (HTTP/HTTPS) provided by the above configuration we have now been asked to host STMP relays (inbound/outbound SMTP), DNS (might later be a GTM) and other services that I wouldn't immediately think of putting behind a load balancer.

 

\n

 

I was originally planning on putting these new services in a separate DMZ which would exist as an interface on another firewall pair (a traditional 3-leg firewall design) but now I'm wondering if there are reasons that I should consider combining all these services into a centralized DMZ that provides both secure access to SMTP, DNS, etc as well as access to load balanced web farms for HTTP/HTTPS. I have a feeling that if I want to do this with SMTP and DNS outside the F5 but behind my firewall I'll need to move to an inline configuration so that I have a way to send management traffic to/from the DNS/SMTP servers assuming they are behind the DMZ firewall but outside the LTMs.

 

\n

 

I'd be interested in others thoughts on best practices for such a configuration as well as where I can read further on my options. I've reviewed the F5 implementation manuals but they seem to only cover individual aspects of what I'm trying to achieve rather than a complete solution.

 

\n

 

I'd also be interested in general thoughts on where to place services like SMTP, DNS, etc in an environment that includes F5 LTMs as my assumption to date has been that I would want these things in a DMZ but not behind my LTMs.

 

\n

 

Thanks in advance for any tips or pointers to additional reading.

 

\n

 

Cheers,

 

\n

 

SJT.

 

"},"Conversation:conversation:130225":{"__typename":"Conversation","id":"conversation:130225","solved":false,"topic":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:130225"},"lastPostingActivityTime":"2011-04-06T13:09:52.000-07:00","lastPostTime":"2011-04-06T13:09:52.000-07:00","unreadReplyCount":11,"isSubscribed":false},"ModerationData:moderation_data:130225":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:130225","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"Revision:revision:130225_1":{"__typename":"Revision","id":"revision:130225_1","lastEditTime":"2011-03-31T09:04:00.000-07:00"},"ForumReplyMessage:message:130229":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","id":"message:130229","conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:130225"},"author":{"__ref":"User:user:51154"},"revisionNum":1,"uid":130229,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:TechnicalForum"},"subject":"Re: LTM DMZ Design Question","readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:130229"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:130225"},"body":"Posted By Simon Thorpe on 03/31/2011 01:00 PM\n

 

\nThanks Joel!

 

\n

 

That's interesting to hear that you use the \"sandwich DMZ\" approach - I'd been reading about this in various places and hearing pros/cons so it's good to hear that you have a real-world example of this in production.

 

\n

 

A few questions - by \"weak routes\" on the DMZ servers I assume you mean a host based route pointing to the internal networks via the internal FW since their default gateway is the F5? We have used this approach before but I was never 100% convinced that it was something I wanted to rely on. Could you send management traffic to/from the DMZ servers out of a separate interface on the LTMs instead or does that cause more problems that it solves?

 

\n

 

Secondly, how are you separating your \"infrastructure stacks\"? Are they on different networks separated by ACLs, different LTMs, etc or did you just mean groups of virtual servers on the same LTM pair(s)?

 

\n

 

I was also interested in your idea of having your database servers in essentially their own DMZ off the \"inside\" FW. In our case we really have only two classes of server - \"web\" which encompasses HTTP, Citrix, DNS & SMPT and \"application\" which includes our application and database servers (our \"application layer\"). All of these in some way support our customer facing applications and we don't have any \"internal\" resources present such as user workstations - these are all at separate sites. So in our case we would likely have all our \"application\" servers in the \"internal_net\" from your diagram.

 

\n

 

If anyone else has similar examples of how they do this I'd love to hear them.

 

\n

 

Cheers!

 

\n

 

-Simon.

 

\n

\n

 

I've never been a fan of allowing servers in the DMZ to have any more than 1 interface (save a lights out backplane connection). All traffic, management or otherwise intended for the corporate lan heads directly to a non-external firewall (usually separating mgmt and data zones). For DMZ ADC deployments, all applications in a similar vertical security layer can run through the same HA pair, but once they are inside the firewall I typically split out mission/business critical apps on separate pairs. If I have more than one vertical security layer, sec policy usually demands physical separation and thus multiple pairs.

 

","body@stringLength":"2620","rawBody":"Posted By Simon Thorpe on 03/31/2011 01:00 PM\n

 

\nThanks Joel!

 

\n

 

That's interesting to hear that you use the \"sandwich DMZ\" approach - I'd been reading about this in various places and hearing pros/cons so it's good to hear that you have a real-world example of this in production.

 

\n

 

A few questions - by \"weak routes\" on the DMZ servers I assume you mean a host based route pointing to the internal networks via the internal FW since their default gateway is the F5? We have used this approach before but I was never 100% convinced that it was something I wanted to rely on. Could you send management traffic to/from the DMZ servers out of a separate interface on the LTMs instead or does that cause more problems that it solves?

 

\n

 

Secondly, how are you separating your \"infrastructure stacks\"? Are they on different networks separated by ACLs, different LTMs, etc or did you just mean groups of virtual servers on the same LTM pair(s)?

 

\n

 

I was also interested in your idea of having your database servers in essentially their own DMZ off the \"inside\" FW. In our case we really have only two classes of server - \"web\" which encompasses HTTP, Citrix, DNS & SMPT and \"application\" which includes our application and database servers (our \"application layer\"). All of these in some way support our customer facing applications and we don't have any \"internal\" resources present such as user workstations - these are all at separate sites. So in our case we would likely have all our \"application\" servers in the \"internal_net\" from your diagram.

 

\n

 

If anyone else has similar examples of how they do this I'd love to hear them.

 

\n

 

Cheers!

 

\n

 

-Simon.

 

\n

\n

 

I've never been a fan of allowing servers in the DMZ to have any more than 1 interface (save a lights out backplane connection). All traffic, management or otherwise intended for the corporate lan heads directly to a non-external firewall (usually separating mgmt and data zones). For DMZ ADC deployments, all applications in a similar vertical security layer can run through the same HA pair, but once they are inside the firewall I typically split out mission/business critical apps on separate pairs. If I have more than one vertical security layer, sec policy usually demands physical separation and thus multiple pairs.

 

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