Let me start by saying this..... I am by no means an expert with my F5 LTM. I'm quite new to the administration of it.
Does anyone know of a way to detect users using IE6, and stop them from a...
CRLs are often large, so they would have to be downloaded in entirety before parsing. That could cause some initial connections to fail while that's happening. Or you have to go out of your way to pre-fetch and cache all known CRLs. Not everyone is so lucky to know what those CRLs are and where to get them from (until the client arrives). OCSP requests are small, discreet transactions, usually on the order of 1-2K tops. An OCSP responder does the pre-fetching and caching, and the OCSP client simply makes a request for some specific piece of information. In that respect, OCSP can be highly performant. Plus it doesn't put any additional burden on the BIG-IP to store and manage large CRLs.
You have the same issue with OCSP that you'd have with CRLs if the remote service becomes unavailable. But then a local OCSP responder is easy to build, and many options are free. I worked for many years with US DoD and CRLs were never really an option for client cert revocation given the immense size of the CRLs. A local OCSP responder not only alleviates that, but you can also usually configure a responder to respond past the expiration of the CRL. That was sometimes a problem too, where the CRL would go stale before a new one could be fetched. With the local responder we could set it to return the last status of a cert in the previous copy of the CRL. I don't think that's possible with pure CRLs.
As to the CRL refresh script option, the more I think about it, this probably wouldn't work in your scenario. The idea would be to have a script that perdiodically queries the site and passes a client cert, forcing the client SSL profile to fetch the CRL if it's not in cache. The issue here is that your script would need a client cert for each respective CRL. I imagine you could spoof this, but I'd have to test that to know for sure.
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Validator","id":"message:299776","revisionNum":2,"repliesCount":9,"author":{"__ref":"User:user:109589"},"depth":0,"hasGivenKudo":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:TechnicalForum"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:299776"},"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:299776"},"body@stripHtml({\"truncateLength\":200})":" From v15.1 onwards client SSL profiles support CRL validator objects as per this bug report: Bug ID 743758 (f5.com) I have no experience of CRL Validator. I have just started to read about it, but...","body@stringLength":"4682","rawBody":"
From v15.1 onwards client SSL profiles support CRL validator objects as per this bug report:
I have no experience of CRL Validator. I have just started to read about it, but I haven't found much info and would appreciate input from those who already have experience to help me properly understand its operation and benefits/limiataions.
The F5 client SSL overview pages don't look to cover it, but the following describes it from the server SSL profile point of view (heading \"Create a custom Server SSL profile that supports CRL\"):
So first off let me just make sure I have understood the basic setup (please correct anything I have wrong):
1) Client SSL profile set up as normal for client authentication e.g. require a cert, and attached to relevant VS. 2) Internal proxy created referencing a DNS resolver. The DNS resolver is used to map any of the expected DNS zones referenced in CRLDPs to DNS servers that can perform the name resolution. 3) CRL object created referencing internal proxy. 4) CRL object attached to client SSL profile mentioned in point 1.
In this setup the F5 will examine the CRLDP contained within the client cert, perform a DNS lookup for it, and then progress to download the CRL to use for checking the client cert. So I have the following pieces I want to understand (answers for any appreciated :-)...... > How are different methods e.g. LDAP/HTTP handled? > What is the approach if multiple CRLDPs are specified in the cert? > What happens if the CRLDP isn't covered by the DNS zones in the DNS resolver? > Is there any mechanism to restrict the set of CRLDPs that this download and cert check will operate for, i.e. only perform the operation if the CRLDP in the cert matches a specific set of known CRLDPs (I assume not in the normal setup, it would need to be performed via the likes of an iRule instead?) > The CRL object has a setting \"Strict Revocation Check\". The operation of this isn't clear to me - it seems like if it is set the client connection is paused until the CRL is downloaded and checked, or if not set the F5 starts the download but returns 'unkown' for the cert revocation check - if that is the case will the SSL connection be allowed to establish anyway or how is the unkown status handled? > What sort of error handling is used, e.g. what if the F5 can't connect to the CRLDP - is there a timeout value used? What if it does connect but is taking a long time to download - will the SSL handshake be paused indefinitely (I assume based on the setting of Strict Revocation Check?) - if so have folks needed to increase the SSL handshake timeout setting in the SSL profile? > The CRL is cached - is that governed by the contents of the CRL itself, e.g. nextupdate filed, or is it configurable? > Is there any way to manually specify specific CRLDPs that will be downloaded and constantly refreshed whether certificates which reference them are received or not?
The last query is the main reason I am looking into the CRL Validator setup in the first place. I have a use case whereby client certs can be presented which will be signed by a few different CAs, and therefore multiple CRLs need to be checked not just one. I have seen comments that this can be achieved by downloading the different CRLs (the CRLDPs are already known) and simply concatenating them (in PEM format) - e.g. done periodically by iCall or bash script and the concatenated 'bundle' is then specified as the crl-file on the client SSL profile. However I raised an F5 support request to check if the F5 does definitely support concatenated CRL files in the client SSL profile and unfortunately the answer was no 😞
I have no experience of CRL Validator. I have just started to read about it, but I haven't found much info and would appreciate input from those who already have experience to help me properly understand its operation and benefits/limiataions.
The F5 client SSL overview pages don't look to cover it, but the following describes it from the server SSL profile point of view (heading \"Create a custom Server SSL profile that supports CRL\"):
So first off let me just make sure I have understood the basic setup (please correct anything I have wrong):
1) Client SSL profile set up as normal for client authentication e.g. require a cert, and attached to relevant VS. 2) Internal proxy created referencing a DNS resolver. The DNS resolver is used to map any of the expected DNS zones referenced in CRLDPs to DNS servers that can perform the name resolution. 3) CRL object created referencing internal proxy. 4) CRL object attached to client SSL profile mentioned in point 1.
In this setup the F5 will examine the CRLDP contained within the client cert, perform a DNS lookup for it, and then progress to download the CRL to use for checking the client cert. So I have the following pieces I want to understand (answers for any appreciated :-)...... > How are different methods e.g. LDAP/HTTP handled? > What is the approach if multiple CRLDPs are specified in the cert? > What happens if the CRLDP isn't covered by the DNS zones in the DNS resolver? > Is there any mechanism to restrict the set of CRLDPs that this download and cert check will operate for, i.e. only perform the operation if the CRLDP in the cert matches a specific set of known CRLDPs (I assume not in the normal setup, it would need to be performed via the likes of an iRule instead?) > The CRL object has a setting \"Strict Revocation Check\". The operation of this isn't clear to me - it seems like if it is set the client connection is paused until the CRL is downloaded and checked, or if not set the F5 starts the download but returns 'unkown' for the cert revocation check - if that is the case will the SSL connection be allowed to establish anyway or how is the unkown status handled? > What sort of error handling is used, e.g. what if the F5 can't connect to the CRLDP - is there a timeout value used? What if it does connect but is taking a long time to download - will the SSL handshake be paused indefinitely (I assume based on the setting of Strict Revocation Check?) - if so have folks needed to increase the SSL handshake timeout setting in the SSL profile? > The CRL is cached - is that governed by the contents of the CRL itself, e.g. nextupdate filed, or is it configurable? > Is there any way to manually specify specific CRLDPs that will be downloaded and constantly refreshed whether certificates which reference them are received or not?
The last query is the main reason I am looking into the CRL Validator setup in the first place. I have a use case whereby client certs can be presented which will be signed by a few different CAs, and therefore multiple CRLs need to be checked not just one. I have seen comments that this can be achieved by downloading the different CRLs (the CRLDPs are already known) and simply concatenating them (in PEM format) - e.g. done periodically by iCall or bash script and the concatenated 'bundle' is then specified as the crl-file on the client SSL profile. However I raised an F5 support request to check if the F5 does definitely support concatenated CRL files in the client SSL profile and unfortunately the answer was no 😞
CRLs are often large, so they would have to be downloaded in entirety before parsing. That could cause some initial connections to fail while that's happening. Or you have to go out of your way to pre-fetch and cache all known CRLs. Not everyone is so lucky to know what those CRLs are and where to get them from (until the client arrives). OCSP requests are small, discreet transactions, usually on the order of 1-2K tops. An OCSP responder does the pre-fetching and caching, and the OCSP client simply makes a request for some specific piece of information. In that respect, OCSP can be highly performant. Plus it doesn't put any additional burden on the BIG-IP to store and manage large CRLs.
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You have the same issue with OCSP that you'd have with CRLs if the remote service becomes unavailable. But then a local OCSP responder is easy to build, and many options are free. I worked for many years with US DoD and CRLs were never really an option for client cert revocation given the immense size of the CRLs. A local OCSP responder not only alleviates that, but you can also usually configure a responder to respond past the expiration of the CRL. That was sometimes a problem too, where the CRL would go stale before a new one could be fetched. With the local responder we could set it to return the last status of a cert in the previous copy of the CRL. I don't think that's possible with pure CRLs.
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As to the CRL refresh script option, the more I think about it, this probably wouldn't work in your scenario. The idea would be to have a script that perdiodically queries the site and passes a client cert, forcing the client SSL profile to fetch the CRL if it's not in cache. The issue here is that your script would need a client cert for each respective CRL. I imagine you could spoof this, but I'd have to test that to know for sure.
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OCSP does indeed have a few advantages over CRL:
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CRLs are often large, so they would have to be downloaded in entirety before parsing. That could cause some initial connections to fail while that's happening. Or you have to go out of your way to pre-fetch and cache all known CRLs. Not everyone is so lucky to know what those CRLs are and where to get them from (until the client arrives). OCSP requests are small, discreet transactions, usually on the order of 1-2K tops. An OCSP responder does the pre-fetching and caching, and the OCSP client simply makes a request for some specific piece of information. In that respect, OCSP can be highly performant. Plus it doesn't put any additional burden on the BIG-IP to store and manage large CRLs.
\n
You have the same issue with OCSP that you'd have with CRLs if the remote service becomes unavailable. But then a local OCSP responder is easy to build, and many options are free. I worked for many years with US DoD and CRLs were never really an option for client cert revocation given the immense size of the CRLs. A local OCSP responder not only alleviates that, but you can also usually configure a responder to respond past the expiration of the CRL. That was sometimes a problem too, where the CRL would go stale before a new one could be fetched. With the local responder we could set it to return the last status of a cert in the previous copy of the CRL. I don't think that's possible with pure CRLs.
\n
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As to the CRL refresh script option, the more I think about it, this probably wouldn't work in your scenario. The idea would be to have a script that perdiodically queries the site and passes a client cert, forcing the client SSL profile to fetch the CRL if it's not in cache. The issue here is that your script would need a client cert for each respective CRL. I imagine you could spoof this, but I'd have to test that to know for sure.
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Cheers again for the reply 😊
I agree in ‘normal’ operation OCSP has clear benefits over CRL. However in my scenario I see clear advantages to pre-fetching the CRLs. I can’t go into the finer specifics of my scenario, but I know it will apply to many others. The key general concepts are:
Known CRLDPs (allows for pre-fetching on a regular basis, i.e. updated in background)
CRLs are small – they are many magnitudes smaller than the permissible sizes referenced by K10054 (even if concatenated into a single file – although I realise they will only grow over time, so concatenating gains more potential for issues over time)
Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be an option to pre-fetch the files natively in the F5 arsenal. APM comes closest in that you can use an ‘Update Interval’ so as to continually refresh CRLs based on a timeframe of your choosing (unlike CRL Validator which relies on the nextupdate filed), but APM has downsides:
CRL only downloaded at point that client cert received (connections held up and as you say it’s for the whole CRL)
If multiple certs received at essentially the same time then I believe multiple CRL downloads are kicked off until one of them completes and the CRL is actually cached
I _believe_ (welcome to hear otherwise 😊 ) if the CRL download has been started based on the Update Interval then if that download fails the client connection is dropped – i.e. even though the CRL nextupdate hasn’t expired, the existing CRL is seen as invalid because the Update Interval has passed, so there is no kind of ‘fallback’ (whereas if CRL was pre-fetched in the background there would be no impact to current client connections if a CRL download fails – the system just waits for the next download to trigger and in the meantime the existing CRL is used).
Regarding expired CRL – the SSL profiles allow for that option, but it is on a single CRL (unless trying to use concatenated CRLs).
Local OCSP responder sounds interesting, but it will still hold up connections rather than just making a check against a local file. A local OCSP connection should be very quick, but surely it would still be longer than a local compare on the F5 against a CRL? You then also have to manage something separate to the F5, which is a headache for companies when they have bought the F5 to do all of this work (e.g. keeping on top of security issues and applying patches, more devices to bring under a support model and to manage alerts from etc. etc.).
Regarding forcing a refresh by presenting various client certs (one per CRL) - having the certs to present would be no problem at all in my scenario – test certs are available and constantly refreshed. However it wouldn’t really do what I need – I want the CRL to be refreshed in the background. There is sufficient load that real traffic would likely trigger a CRL download long before the automated script did.
Unfortunately there just doesn’t appear to be a method to do what I need (other than possibly concatenated CRL if we can get round the support issues) so I will look into the alternatives. CRL Validator won’t be one of them based on the cache being for nextupdate (would be simply too long between refreshes). APM is a potential but with those downsides I mentioned.
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